Tactical discussion - FMJ/JHP, Taser & The Way We Think

Hey hey,
it's been some time I was thinking about writing something like this down, but finally today's Bupy's taser rushing made me to do it. (No offence here)

There are a couple of things I wish we had cleared, because I feel that the overall tactic improvement might be the result of it. I have a couple of things in mind. When you are actually replying to any of those, make sure you point out which topic are you referring to, so it doesn't turn out to be messy.

Topic Number #1 - Taser Rushing
This is long way discussed topic, yet I feel like posting it here. I was really surprised that Bupy today (it is not only Bupy for sure, he is good player) taser rushed like it wasn't raining at all. When I told him that this is not part of ETS style, he replied something like "umm, huh", which had me face-palmed at some point. His question that followed made me unsure of my answer though "What if I am 100% sure (that there is not more than one suspect and bug will not happen)?".

I don't really see taser or pepper spray as something you should use against armed suspects or suspects at all. It can be so when suspect is already affected by any grenade, ! still ! I see punch as a much safer solution (in case suspect is already affected). In case that bug happens and suspect doesnt want to go down after a few punches, taser thingy can go and take its 5 seconds of fame. Otherwise I am aware that taser is not that kind of thing I would see in pocket of every member of my team. One taser per team is enough (unless the officer is taken down of course, lol). Still, I see command "everyone take taser" as a mistake.

After all, taser is not realistic at all. It is only the game that makes it so powerful. I am pretty sure that if you tried pepper spraying or tasing a suspect that is armored in real life (and might not even know about you what so ever), you would end up being dead. Check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be78uvNtAkY Imagine he had gun. He would have shot them both. That is not the only video online, you can lookup more.

Topic Number #2 - Leaders deciding ammo type
For me, already for some time a strange way of deciding equipment of your team. Why are you doing this? And - if I don't order FMJ/JHP, why the hell do you ask?
Those two questions are giving me headache recently. It is not that I am being asked this question, it is that I ask this myself.

Why?

  • FMJ and JHP does not differ that much - go and try to convince me that I am mistaken; I have played this game for many years now and I sense that the real difference is only in papers
  • Using only FMJ or JHP creates potential for the player to become better in many aspects - you know what the suspect can handle, easier to shoot weapon out of hands, shooting runners to legs etc

I have not changed FMJ to JHP for over a year now. And guess what.
  1. I can survive without bigger issues
  2. I can kill any suspect easily
  3. I know I can shoot runner to leg and he wont go down
  4. I can shoot suspect weapon out of his hands when there is time enough
  5. I never forget to switch FMJ/JHP like most do and then often cry about
  6. I never shot through the suspect and hurt/killed someone


Topic Number #3 - Why kill when shooting?
Bum, there it goes, shots fired. Your first though? Go and head-shot. This is no Counter Strike. You only need to insta-kill suspect if he is aiming at civilian, if you even touch him or come closer, mission fails.
If there is a suspect shooting at you, most players don't hesitate and take the suspect down without change of him surviving.
It is not so long time ago I made a research about percentage success of shooting suspect's weapon out of their hands or hitting legs. It was pretty successful after all. There is about 50% chance that if you hit suspect's elbow, his weapon will fall off. This works even if he is aiming. In my opinion, you should try that more. Insta-kill is easy, but try to disarm suspect using your own weapon when the situation needs it the most.
You might argue that it is not safe, what so ever. It is. Most weapons have stopping power, especially when hitting arms and legs. I cant say I would die because I tried to shoot off suspect weapon.

So, yea. In my opinion, you should try not to kill and use your weapon wisely. If it is possible, try to hit elbow and shoulder first before you go for head.

Topic Number #4 - Wedges - By SilentHunter
I think I don't have to explain that.
We should take only as much wedges as we are planning to use. Why all team need to take a wedge? We can bring more useful nades.

Topic Number #5 - Shooting runners - By Gas
Don't shoot runners.If a suspect is running away in a complete opposite direction, let him be, no reason to get a penalty for no reason.Unless you can just shoot him in the leg, go ahead, but if you are not experienced or fast enough, don't shoot at all.If the suspect is running towards you, you need to be fast because when he gets a bit close,he will aim and try to shoot, that's the moment when you need to take him down.

Topic Number #6 - Got something on your mind?
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#4 - Wedges
I think I don't have to explain that.
We should take only as much wedges as we are planning to use. Why all team need to take a wedge? We can bring more useful nades.
I rarely use more than 2-3 wedges on the largest map. We should take that in mind when planning tactical eq.

PS: As always, very nice and useful for newbies topic Hunter :) I like that kind of stuff on this forum. It makes it more proffesional in my mind.
Trust me - you don't want me as a leader...
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Very helpful topic. :D :D :D
Maybe u can add a shotgun topic since lots of people love shotgun.
The chosen one who will be dead in every single round --- |ETS|Neo :lol: :lol: :lol:
**Concerning the first topic,Taser rushing:
This something that I HATE!,I see a lot of players doing it,whether they try to catch a running suspect with a taser or cover a door with taser or even clear a room with taser,when I ask them they say we want to get more points...For me,I always use a Pistol,and it is really a life saver!! it saved me tons of times when I ran out of ammo in my primary weapon and I was in a hard situation that I didn't have time to reload,I just took my pistol out and cover my self until the situation calms down.

**For the second topic,Leaders deciding ammo type:
I only order to use FMJ when suspect are armored,if I know that suspects are not armored I don't care which type of ammo my team uses,and for me I use FMJ always,it is good when u want to hit a suspect in the legs,hands or elbows,and it also gives u more chances to catch the suspect alive,especially if he not armored because the bullet goes through him and he will most likely surrender after getting hit.

And lastly for the third topic:Why kill when shooting?;
The head is the last thing I think to hit,first of all it hard to hit especially if I don't have time to aim on it and secondly because it decreases my chances of catching the suspect alive,so if I'm in a situation that forces me to shoot the suspect,I try as much as I can to hit the chest and shoulders area,but if I have time to aim on hands,I surely try to take his weapon down by shooting the hand.

What do you think guys?
First topic: "What if I am 100% sure (that there is not more than one suspect and bug will not happen)?"
I will answer that in a simple way : You will never be 100% sure when using a taser that a bug will not happen or that you will not miss.Never, ever.There's always a chance of the first or the latter happening.
So the only real answer is NEVER TASER RUSH!
Totally agree.
Punches are the way to go on affected by grenades suspects for a couple of reasons : a) they are faster and b) you don't need to switch to primary weapon after, which gives you 1-2 extra seconds in case something goes south.

Second topic : I will go ahead and say it's just Hunter's own opinion and that you don't have to follow the way he does it(no offence).Unless the leader orders specific ammo type, take whatever you want.
Personally, I switch from JHP to FMJ, even though there's not A HUGE difference(there is a very small one) mostly just for realism :D

Third topic: 100% agree.Personally I've never aimed at the head of a suspect, but yes, the best aim would be his hands, assuming you have time.Though to new players, I'd suggest better be safe than sorry and just shoot at the chest if you are not fast enough.

Fourth topic: Again, preference.Of course If I ever ordered so many wedges, I'd order 1 from each team member, otherwise the team will have way less nades.Can't say I disagree with what SilentHunter tried to say, but if a leader feels like he wants 1-2 more wedges, up to him.

Topic Number #5 Don't shoot runners.If a suspect is running away in a complete opposite direction, let him be, no reason to get a penalty for no reason.Unless you can just shoot him in the leg, go ahead, but if you are not experienced or fast enough, don't shoot at all.If the suspect is running towards you, you need to be fast because when he gets a bit close,he will aim and try to shoot, that's the moment when you need to take him down.
Topic number 1, tazer rushing, I do not like it when people rush into rooms with tazer or chase runners, it gets them killed and its unrealistic on top of that. However i do not agree with hunter saying that only 1 person per team should have tazer, there are plenty of scenarios in the swat4 maps where tazer is a safe way to get a suspect complied without wasting flash bang or risking alerting him to a firefight. If a door is scanned, and u have a suspect close it can be fine to just take out tazer and taze him. Worst case scenerio there is a tazer bug, you can trust on your teammates to cover you. So if the leader is experienced like myself i can often tell when it is fairly safe to use a tazer.

Topic number 2 ammo type, I take FMJ when i know its armored suspects, and jhp when there is not, allways have done, i do not know how big of a deal it is, but i believe this is a discussion brought up before, either way i do not think its a big deal if anyone
takes the wrong Ammo type, go with what u want, leader telling ammo type often avoids having every new player asking for ammo type 10 seconds later.

Topic number 3: shoot to kill.
I do not see why you would be frustrated if people kill a suspect aiming at a civilian or teammate, this is our ROE and have always been. Go ahead and kill them if it is legal, i sure wont complain.

Topic number 4: wedges, yes obviously take no more wedges than what is needed, extra nades is game as well ;)

Topic number 5: runners. It is a nasty penalty to kill runners running away, don't do it. one or two shots in the bottom of the legs while yelling often causes the runner to either gimp away slow or turn around and aim, so be ready for that.
This same tactic can also be used for runners running towards you, if they get to close and have a shotgun or m4, they often shoot you instantly or sometimes kill you before aiming their weapon.
If i were a dog and you were a flower, i'd lift up my leg and give you a shower
#1: Completely agree. There is never a good reason to taser rush. Thinking there are situations where it's 100% safe equals not thinking 100%. Enough said.

#2: I don't agree here, in a way that I don't mind people asking about it at all. I'm glad they are actually considering the possible downsided of picking the wrong ammo type. And in my opinion, there are situations where you can go wrong. Some examples:
- Taking JHP ammo when going up against armored suspects. JHP drastically reduces your weapon effectiveness when shooting armored suspects so using FMJ is an absolute must.
- Taking FMJ ammo when there's a great risk of friendly fire or setting of explosions. Take for example the Tarrone mission. There are many civilians that can be harmed by having bullets pass through suspects and hitting them or an explosive. Taking JHP ammo reduces that chance a lot and also comes without any risk since there aren't any armored suspects.

#3: Partly agree. If you have the situation under control than you could always try an take a suspect down without killing them. On the other side, your first duty should always be protecting the safety of civilians and of your own teammates. So I wouldn't recommend taking unnecessary risks just to spare the life of a suspect at possibly the cost of you, your team and/or civilians. On the other side, this also includes going for unnecessary headshots (and miss) while normal body shots are much more reliable and effective.

#4: Mostly agree. No need to bring more wedges then really needed. However, it doesn't hurt to be prepared to adapt to certain situation where you might require a few more wedges than you initially thtought you were going to use before the round started. And while I agree that having several wedges left at the end of a round isn't very useful, having a dozen flashbangs left ain't either.

#5: Mostly agree. Shooting runners ain't necessary most of the time, but here there are also some situation imaginable where you might be taking too much risk if you don't. I don't really like the way the game handles runners and shooting them. It doesn't make sense that you aren't 'allowed' to take a suspects down that runs straight towards you or a teammate or civilian, ignoring several compliance orders. There is not a single SWAT team in the world that would just let that happen...

So that's my thoughts on these topics. Always nice to have discussions about these things here on our forums. Makes people think more about the choices they make rather then just following someones guidelines while not truly understanding them.
[size=150]#6 - Shotguns[/size]
I think everyone should equip with shotgun and buckshot. I lead a team once with only shotguns with buckshot, tasers and 5 wedges. They were all armoured suspects. We survived. The whole team survived. Whenever the equipment changes, the whole team dies. Shotguns for life. They save lifes. They make us play more catiously. Especially since we cannot shoot the armoured ones. Shotguns. The only thing that will ever save you.
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Hunter wrote:
I never shot through the suspect and hurt/killed someone

I did, several times. It's fully a matter of positioning and it happens when you least expect it. Especially on Red Library near Blue Spawn area. Just saying it's possible.

About ammo type: People should be free to take whatever they want. You won't be able to check it anyway. I'm fine with new players asking which ammo should they take.

As for wedges, I always take all of them myself as a leader (when leading a team of 3 or more players). Not only I'm staying the last in formation, it doesn't disrupt the gameplay, there's more flashbangs for my entry team and as a leader I'm rarely deploying nades to start with.

Personally I have nothing against shooting runners (once) in the leg (but only with .45 smg or 9mm smg, both of those kill after 3rd or sometimes 4th shot in the leg, this is accurate information, I'm not using anything else in game). I can say even more, I'm perfectly fine with shooting encountered suspects in the leg before they even start aiming at me. It makes them surrender sometimes, if they run they start limping and your game won't lag when they take their aim at you. Gamewise, as long as you don't incapacitate a suspect, you won't get any penalty (even for harmed suspect, if you are aiming at 100/100). All of this are results of my game scoring system and in-game mechanics analysis, it's in no way realistic or anything.

About shotguns, I've seen them in action. It was going smooth and such until our pointman with shotgun encountered a suspect hiding behind a civilian/hostage. You know what happened when he tried to save the civ by killing the suspect. No more shotguns in my team (with me as a leader) since then.

EDIT: Shooting runners 2 times in the leg make them (usually) drop down to their knees and drop their gun so they surrender.
Fentomized wrote:
[size=150]#6 - Shotguns[/size]
I think everyone should equip with shotgun and buckshot. I lead a team once with only shotguns with buckshot, tasers and 5 wedges. They were all armoured suspects. We survived. The whole team survived. Whenever the equipment changes, the whole team dies. Shotguns for life. They save lifes. They make us play more catiously. Especially since we cannot shoot the armoured ones. Shotguns. The only thing that will ever save you.


This is why this shouldnt be ALLOWED. Mainly because you would mostly think that shotguns are good and they are in real life that is, but in terms of the game mechanics of SWAT nope. Shotguns can be your friend but also not your friend learnt that from the best, Shotguns do massive amount of damage granted however drawbacks is that when trying to take down a suspect mainly because your putting your finger on the trigger to much and cause you to reload alot. Let me give you a scenario, say there are a bunch of sus and swat, swat all has shotguns whilst sus will have assault rifles lmgs pistols etc shotguns wont do s*** mainly cause your more likely to get slaughtered with an hip fire sus lets say or that one sus has a reaction time that is gazillions faster than your reaction time (not actual representation of reaction time). This I have seen before not leading but someone else was ordering a shotgun kit I remember that all of the team got downed and the chances of success in SWAT with shotguns is very slim and im sure other members can tell gruesome stories about their troubles with shotguns

As for the other points I shall conduct my analysis and post something later on

Accuser
#2
Struis wrote:
- Taking FMJ ammo when there's a great risk of friendly fire or setting of explosions. Take for example the Tarrone mission.

As I have stated myself, I am using FMJ ammo all the time for over a year and what you described just not happened at all (at least to me), therefore I can clearly say that the risk is so low it doesn't worth thinking about taking JHP as far you as are good with FMJ. I wish I saw some video where FMJ caused such issue, because now I only see this fact as something that someone used to say that might happen. Sadly, I have never witnessed this in game over the years I play.

I can agree with JHP being used against armored suspect, but they just don't become immortal if you have JHP. There is always way to take them down, if you know how to handle your stuff.

Gas21 wrote:
Unless the leader orders specific ammo type, take whatever you want.

This is exactly what I hate to see. I will not take it, even though leader says so. I rather take it as a suggestion than an order. I am not comfortable with JHP, I just feel that FMJ makes me safer in most cases.
I don't mind people switching FMJ or JHP, I just dont like leaders ordering so.

#3
Jolty^ wrote:
I do not see why you would be frustrated if people kill a suspect aiming at a civilian or teammate, this is our ROE and have always been. Go ahead and kill them if it is legal, i sure wont complain.

It is not that I am frustrated, it is only I am thinking different way. I don't mind people legally killing, but shooting their guns out is effective way of making them surrender and bring more points in final score. Shooting weapon out is good also when suspect is effected and you are in far distance in order to punch/tase him or in case it is not safe to use taser or come closer to the suspect.

#4
As for wedges, I pretty much agree, but Struis made really good point here too. Bringing too many grenades is not good either. I believe that taking a spare wedge won't kill anyone, but ordering to take wedge to anyone doesnt feel alright.

#6
As for shotguns, I pretty much disagree. Here is why:
1) Not accurate for longer distances
2) Dispersion is dangerous, it might hurt/kill civilian in hostage situation and/or your team mate when he is your pointman
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First of all I'm going to explain what happened, so you won't misunderstand something. I hope you read everything and understand my point of view. Also looking forward to see your comments about that.

Fresnal map, I lead (!!!so I take full responsibility of all my actions and team!!!). #1 Kotori #2 Hunter. Blue spawn.
I heard that there's patrolling sus. So I waited for him to start walking away and instead of wasting c2/nades or ordering kotori to go first, I just opened door, slowly followed and tased him in 1 meter. I wouldn't risk to try to punch him with weapon, when I can just safely tase him.
Then proceeded to the left, and behind fence we saw a suspect with civilian, again, I didn't want to scream / shoot his hands-legs / waste nades. I ordered kotori to cover him, slowly came to the tase maximal affect range to get him, since he doesn't face his back enough to spot us nor can magically turn around.
At the right side from them, I ordered c2 on the green door with taser (small room with windows in the middle of this big area), at this point Hunter mentioned tase rushing.

Indeed I was surprised, because these are default suspect's positions. I just used taser, since I knew how suspects act and their routes (he wouldn't turn around to shoot me just like that -> same goes for the second case), so I proceeded.
After that, we proceeded behind the fence, I've ordered to cover his position, took taser, and slowly came to tase him from the far range, so he wouldn't turn around when you come too close.
And small room, knowing that there can stay suspect with civilian at 12oc mid and one c2 affects them all, ordered it with taser, in case suspect disagrees to give up.
IMO tase rush means blindly entering room/area with taser where you may face one or multiple suspects who can damage you/teammates.

From my 9-10yo experience in swat, I just learned all maps who and where can stay/walk/run/hide, specific movements on specific maps, facing angles, what you can expect from them etc etc. So I've been aware that only one suspect is patrolling and nobody else is nearby. Just possibly one suspect behind fence, but he's too far to hear us and start moving. So it's not like you rush inside some tricky rooms/areas with taser where you can easily get shot down along with your teammates. And I would never risk doing that for sure..


1. Explained my actions above. I don't see any negative reasons why not to come and tase suspect if no way he's going to spot you, it's just free arrest without usage of extra methods. Sometimes punching doesn't affect, or vice versa, tasing doesn't affect, so you need to punch him a bit. If the room/area is clear + your mates cover you, I see no problem in tasing affected suspect, punch/taser does it even matter in this case? If this lonely officer dies, it's either -5 points either waste of extra resources. About irl, make it clear, do we roleplay or play normally?
And Chlarmi, are you talking about custom maps? I just almost never use more than one magazine with ammo on normal map.

2. I have no problem in following leader's decision nor explaining that to newbies, because I do that myself when I lead. Before I also used to take only fmj on all maps, then changed my opinion later. And what Struis said.

3. A lot of factors should be taken into consideration. Like who, what does he do, his weapon, movement (if any), distance. Sometimes you can do that, sometimes you're forced to just neutralize the suspect. Again, it depends on the situation.

4. Yes, of course.

5. Completely agree with everything. If you don't know where he can stay, just look for his position later, so you would know one of the possible runner's position on the map.

6. Depends on the map and suspects themselves.
-Tasers

Jolty^ wrote:
there are plenty of scenarios in the swat4 maps where tazer is a safe way to get a suspect complied without wasting flash bang or risking alerting him to a firefight. If a door is scanned, and u have a suspect close it can be fine to just take out tazer and taze him. Worst case scenerio there is a tazer bug, you can trust on your teammates to cover you. So if the leader is experienced like myself i can often tell when it is fairly safe to use a tazer.


Totally agree with Joltie here, while taser rushing/running is totally noobish & catastrophic , taser is greatly effective around tight corners or very small closed places which you are certain that you'll get the sus without any casualties, and can be also a nade saver. Not to mention STEALTH, as nades make lots of noise that can draw sus out to unecessary places. So I see a lot of pros that can overcome a bit of cons with an experienced leader/players.

-Shotguns I've never been a fan of them and totally useless in situations where sus and civs are clumping on each others and in long range shooting.



-Shoot to kill: Of course it's always better if you can make the sus drop his gun by shooting the arm or such, but it's not always possible, as for when the sus are angry and shooting us like crazy you won't always have the time to aim a good bullet in the arm or knee, unless you are a pro and very used to this tactic then it's another story because for other player it may take some extra time which can cause himself or his teamate to get shot.

-Ammo Type: I agree partly because it totally can be the player's choice, but I don't want to see a player emptying their JHP mags at an armored sus either so maybe it can be chosed freely on JHP maps.
Espada wrote:
-Tasers

Jolty^ wrote:
there are plenty of scenarios in the swat4 maps where tazer is a safe way to get a suspect complied without wasting flash bang or risking alerting him to a firefight. If a door is scanned, and u have a suspect close it can be fine to just take out tazer and taze him. Worst case scenerio there is a tazer bug, you can trust on your teammates to cover you. So if the leader is experienced like myself i can often tell when it is fairly safe to use a tazer.


Totally agree with Joltie here, while taser rushing/running is totally noobish & catastrophic , taser is greatly effective around tight corners or very small closed places which you are certain that you'll get the sus without any casualties, and can be also a nade saver. Not to mention STEALTH, as nades make lots of noise that can draw sus out to unecessary places. So I see a lot of pros that can overcome a bit of cons with an experienced leader/players.

-Shotguns I've never been a fan of them and totally useless in situations where sus and civs are clumping on each others and in long range shooting.



-Shoot to kill: Of course it's always better if you can make the sus drop his gun by shooting the arm or such, but it's not always possible, as for when the sus are angry and shooting us like crazy you won't always have the time to aim a good bullet in the arm or knee, unless you are a pro and very used to this tactic then it's another story because for other player it may take some extra time which can cause himself or his teamate to get shot.

-Ammo Type: I agree partly because it totally can be the player's choice, but I don't want to see a player emptying their JHP mags at an armored sus either so maybe it can be chosed freely on JHP maps.


Don't forget Espada's dodging skills! They actually save lives! Just make sure there isn't a teammate behind you when you're doing it.
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